Name: Product Demo | Advanced Technology within Dispensable Thermal Interface Materials | Presented by Parker Chomerics
Uploaded: 2025-10-08T16:45:06.767Z
Duration: 37 min
Description: Product Demo | Advanced Technology within Dispensable Thermal Interface Materials | Presented by Parker Chomerics

Transcript for "Product Demo | Advanced Technology within Dispensable Thermal Interface Materials | Presented by Parker Chomerics": Welcome back to Thermal Live. We have had some really good discussion so far today, and we'd like to keep the momentum going. So keep interacting in the chat and the questions tab. In our next session, we're gonna take a look at dispensable TIMS, covering everything from the fundamentals and recent advances, to future development trends and dispensing best practices. We've got two presenters from Parker Chomerics, who are both past presenters from Thermal Live. So we're excited to have them back. KJ Sterling is the global automotive market manager at Parker, and he leads marketing strategies for thermal interface materials within the automotive sector. And Ben Nudelman is the global market manager for commercial electronics at Parker. He supports new business in the telecom, industrial, and life science industries. Parker Chomerics is a leading global supplier of thermal interface materials, EMI shielding, and engineered plastics. And at the conclusion of the presentation, Ben will be joining us to take your questions, so please type them in as they come up. You should see the q and a tab to the right of the chat tab. Now I wanna welcome KJ and Ben back to Thermal Live. Thanks for being with us today. Hello, everyone, and welcome to our virtual event on the topic of advancements in dispensable thermal interface materials. Before we get into the content of the webinar, we wanted to introduce ourselves. My name is Ben Nudelman, and I'm the global market manager for commercial electronics at Parker Chomerics. And my name is KJ Sterling, and I'm the global market manager for automotive electronics at Parker Chomerics. We're excited to get started and here's a quick look at today's agenda for our virtual event over the next half hour or so. We'll start with a brief introduction to Parker Chomerics and a quick look at the Thermal Interface Materials or TIMS that we'll be talking about in this virtual event. Then we'll jump right into the information about one of the categories of dispensable TIMS, thermal gels. After that, we'll get into some specifics and features of dispensable gap fillers and cure in place materials. This is the other category of dispensable TIMS that we will cover. Following that will be a section on the application and dispensing of these materials before our wrap up and the q and a section at the end. Feel free to ask questions throughout the virtual event, and we'll do our best to get all of your questions answered at the end. Now here is a brief introduction to Parker Chomerics. We are a division of the Parker Hannifin Corporation and are the global leader in the development and application of EMI shielding, electrical grounding, and thermal interface materials. Our global headquarters are located in Weber, Massachusetts, about twenty minutes outside of Boston. We have 11 manufacturing facilities around the globe dedicated to providing localized applications engineering and product support in the North America, Europe, and Asia Pacific regions. Telecommunications, aerospace, defense, automotive and consumer electronics to drive innovation and have been developing EMI shielding solutions and thermal interface materials for more than sixty years. With two R and D centers of excellence, our core competencies are in material science and process technology, utilizing best practices in particle science to develop our materials. We have applications labs in North America, Europe, and Asia to support the application and testing of materials for customers in all regions of the world. Chomerics Technologies are divided into four main product families. The first is thermal interface materials, which is the focus of today's presentation. These materials are commonly used on printed circuit boards of heat generating surfaces and are designed to efficiently transfer heat, helping to prevent electronics from overheating. The second product family is electromagnetic interference or EMI shielding and electrical grounding. This family encompasses gaskets, metal products, paints, coatings and laminates used in electronics to protect signals from disruption caused by external or internal sources of radiation. Additionally, this category encompasses materials that create intentional electrical paths for grounding, such as fabric over foam and finger stock solutions. The third segment of our product portfolio features engineered plastics, which include both electrically conductive solutions for EMI shielding and nonconductive injection molded plastics used across various industries. The final product family is integrated solutions, which leverages our decades of expertise in automated assembly, allowing us to utilize all of our product lines to produce high volumes of complex integrated systems each year for our customers. Now let's get into a brief introduction into the different categories of TIMSS. Parker Chomerics has an extensive thermal interface material portfolio spanning several families of products, but the two product categories that are of interest today are one component dispensable thermal gels and care in place compounds or dispensable gap fillers. Other materials available from Comerix are phase change materials, thermal gap pads, thermal greases, dielectric pads, which are also called thermally conductive insulator pads, and thermally conductive double sided tapes. During today's virtual event, we'll dive deeper into gels and dispensable gap fillers and then talk about the recent advancements for both categories. Thermal gels are dispensable, one component materials that do not require any curing process. They will not harden, become brittle, pump out, or flow out due to vibration when used in proper operating conditions. They will maintain their physical and thermal properties throughout their entire product life and are ideal for high volume, high reliability applications. Dispensable gap fillers or cure in place compounds are often two component substances that will cure as a result of chemical interactions that occur once the materials are mixed, often through a static mixer. These come in a range of hardnesses at full cure and are also compatible with automated application that can be used for high volumes of devices. We really must stress that the key difference between thermal gels and two component gap fillers or potting and encapsulation compounds is that they do not undergo a curing process after dispensing to achieve final material properties. Let's jump right into a deep dive about thermal gels. So why are gels so beneficial in electronic assemblies, and why have they become as commonplace as they are? We've mentioned the benefits before, but let's get a a little bit more technical with this information. Parker Chomerics developed gels more than two decades ago to provide an alternative to gap pads in some applications. One of the most important clarifications that we can make is that gels are not greases and they are not a two component curable material. They're able to be applied in highly repeatable and highly precise automated dispensing processes. They impart no load on underlying heat generating components when not actively loaded. They can significantly simplify the supply chain by minimizing the number of unique part numbers required. They do not require any secondary curing or processing. And they will not become brittle or hard or pump out. And they're excellent gap fillers and can be used in very small gaps such as 100 microns or large gaps such as two or three or even four or five millimeters. But beyond this, there are some properties that we wanna get a bit more detailed with. KJ, can you explain what the terms viscoelastic, pseudoplastic, and thixotropic mean in the context of thermal gels? I'd be happy to, Ben. Thermal gels are viscoelastic, which means that they exhibit properties shown in both liquid and solid materials. For example, first, think of water, a material you would consider to be a liquid. This material would always flow to conform to the shape of its container. Next, think of rubber, a material you would consider to be a solid. This material will hold its shape. Finally, think of cake icing. This material appears solid when not disturbed, but flows like a liquid when you attempt to spread it on a cake. Cake icing would be considered a viscoelastic material. Furthermore, our thermogels are both pseudoplastic and thixotropic, both properties used to describe viscoelastic materials. A pseudoplastic material is one whose viscosity decreases with increasing shear. In other words, the more you attempt to move the material, the easier the material will move. A thixotropic material is one whose viscosity decreases with constant shear over time. In other words, the longer you move the material, the easier the material will move. All of these properties are taken into careful consideration during the development, production, and usage of thermal gels. GEL50 TBL is the first product developed in our TBL or thin bond line gel family. It has the benefits of dispensable gels, but the added property of a thinner recommended minimum bond line for applications that can hold very tight tolerances. It was developed as an alternative to thermal greases and phase change materials that are common in these thin bond lines, but present their own challenges. The challenges with thermal greases are often associated with their physical properties. Because of their lower viscosity, greases can often pump out of thin gaps as a result of microscopic expansion and contraction of surfaces during cycling of different temperatures. The difference in the coefficient of thermal expansion or CTE of heat generating and heat dissipating surfaces is a common cause of these expansion and contraction cycles. Greases can also harden, causing issues when trying to rework or separate surfaces. As an alternative to phase change materials or PCMs, gel 50 TBL does not require a burn in cycle. And while phase change materials can be difficult or cumbersome to apply and rework, gel 50 TBL is specifically designed to be easily applied and easily reworked while also being a stencilable material. VT stands for vertical tackiness, and we have two current products in this product family with several more in development. These are high thermal reliability materials. But what is so special about our VT gels, and what gives us the right to make claims about high reliability and resistance to vertical slump or movement under vibration? And in addition to easily passing all of our standard reliability testing, the VT gels were formulated with adhesion promoting agents and based on a chemistry that will allow them to pass additional vertical stability tests. They were also developed as a cost effective solution and are priced competitively even compared to gels without the same levels of reliability. We took feedback from customers in the consumer electronics, automotive, and telecommunications industries and developed additional vertical stability tests to simulate their requirements. These tests involve either heat soaking or temperature cycling in gaps up to three millimeters and analyzing the visual appearance of the material to ensure there's no slumping and no cracking. After dry heat aging, heat and humidity testing, and thermal cycling, both gel 35 b t and gel 50 b t materials showed a decrease in thermal impedance. This is a result of improved wetting out of the gel and effective heat transfer due to exceptional contact between mating surfaces. After stress testing the material utilizing the GMW thirty one seventy two autumn boat test method, both materials showed less than 1.5% increase in thermal impedance, considerably better than other thermal gels on the market. Let's switch over to dispensable gap fillers and cure in place materials. Cure in place materials or SIP compounds are materials that, just as the name suggests, cure in place. They will undergo a hardening process from a dispensable form factor to a hardened material that will cure in the shape in which it was compressed to shortly after mixing. These materials will undergo a curing process that can occur over seconds, minutes, or hours, often depending on the environmental conditions they're placed into. Most materials will cure over the course of a day or so at moon temperature and at 50% relative humidity. It can go through an accelerated cure schedule that can be as little as a few minutes when exposed to high temperatures. They're used to fill gaps with a variety of thicknesses and can be used down to their minimum bond line of a few tenths of a millimeter or in larger gaps up to 10 millimeters and more. These materials are used to provide heat transfer properties, but also have the added benefit of a structural or adhesive strength because of their physical properties when they achieve a full cure. These materials can be used for potting as well as underfill or simply to take up large gaps caused by assembly or manufacturing tolerances. Some of them, as we will share shortly, can even be developed to achieve a low low hardness at full cure, providing vibration dampening properties without relaying excessive force on the underlying electronics components that they serve to cool. As with gels, these materials are designed to be dispensable and are compatible with precision automation equipment and robotic assembly. Now that we've shared some background on these materials, we wanted to give some details on advancements within the recent product development procedures here at Parker Chomerics. We've developed CYP 35 e and CYP 60 as dispensable gap filler that are specifically made to serve as low hardness materials. Achieving a hardness of 45 shore double o at final cure, These materials cure to a notably lower hardness than nearly all other offerings on the market. SIP 35 e features a 3.5 watt per meter kelvin thermal conductivity, while SIP 60 features a high performance six point o watts per meter kelvin conductivity level. Both materials are able to undergo an elevated temperature curing cycle, which will allow them to achieve their full physical and thermal properties in as little as thirty minutes. These are form stable materials post dispensing, which means that they won't self level and will cure into the form in which they are compressed when going through the curing process. Because of this, they are meant to be dispensed, then compressed, then cured. As a result of the curing process, these materials will achieve some adhesive strength between the surfaces that they're in contact with. An important note is that they're not designed to be thermally conductive adhesive, but instead happen to have adhesive properties that can be advantageous in some applications. They are reworkable, which limits any permanent damage to electronics, and because of their cure hardness, they can provide vibration dampening properties. One of the most important factors to consider when designing dispensable TIMS is how they are applied or assembled into your design. This involves mechanical or design engineers, manufacturing engineers, and oftentimes contract manufacturers as well. In this last section of the virtual event, we'll show some videos of typical dispensing and application processes for gels and gap filler materials. When it comes to gels, there are a few other considerations to think about. Gels are homogeneous materials and a supply chain benefit is that instead of unique part numbers for every part, a different amount of material can be dispensed to meet the x, y, and z dimensions of the heat generating element and the gap it has with the heat sink. This means that material can be packaged in a few different sizes, so it's optimized for the application. Sampling and prototyping is typically done with small volume cartridges that can either be hand dispensed or use tabletop equipment that apply a pressure to the syringe over a given period of time. Production applications typically utilize larger cartridges such as those with a 180 ccs, 300 ccs, or 600 ccs of material. These are often used with highly programmable automated systems that include precision valves to accurately control the amount of material being dispensed. Because gels are used at the circuit board level in relatively small volumes of material per unit, these sizes of container can last through hundreds of parts before needing to be replaced. Finally, if the program volume requires it, gels can be packaged in high volume packages such as one gallon and five gallon pails. These pails often require additional equipment to control the flow of the material out of the pail, but provide the advantage of lower unit costs per volume of material and less changeover of packaging. When it comes to dispensable gap fillers or SIP materials, the only key difference is that the cartridges will come as dual side cartridges and will utilize a static mixing tip in different lengths. For high volume applications of two component materials, they will be packaged to the same one and five gallon pails, but will be provided in a kit with both pails of each component. These components will go through a pump system and be mixed just before dispensing. Let's take a look at some of the most common dispense patterns that are used to apply thermal gels onto devices. It is important to select the proper dispensing pattern to ensure adequate coverage of the heat generating component without introducing unnecessary complexity, which can lead to increased air entrapment and longer cycle times. The most highly recommended pattern is the dot or sometimes called the Hershey kiss. The dot is the simplest pattern and involves the dispensing tip being held stationary above the landing zone while the flow of the femoral gel is triggered from off to on and then back off again. The dot can cover square or circular components and yields the quickest cycle time. Next is the line. This is also a simple pattern and involves the dispensing tip being held at constant height above the landing zone and moving parallel to the component. A line is used for rectangular landing zones and yields a moderate cycle time. For larger landing zones, a more complex dispensing pattern is needed. The serpentine pattern is used to fill large rectangular zones and involves adding a curve to dispense multiple lines next to each other. It is important to ensure that each line overlaps with the last to prevent air entrapment when the thermal gel is compressed in the final assembly. Circumstine patterns take longer to dispense and are more challenging to program, so we recommend using a line to fill rectangular zones if possible. Lastly is the spiral, used to fill large square or circular zones and involves adding a curve to dispense multiple lines next to each other. Spiral patterns are the most challenging to program as each concentric circle must overlap with the last to prevent air entrapment. Initiating the spiral form from the center and spiraling outwards typically yields more consistent results than starting from the outside diameter and spiraling inwards. As with the serpentine pattern, this is only recommended if a larger volume of material prohibits the use of the dot or Hershey kiss. Here's an example of our gel 35 VT being dispensed in various dot sizes. In addition to the vibration and vertical slump resistance properties of the VT material, it it was formulated with dispensing characteristics in mind. The adhesion promoters that ensure effective contact with the substrate allow gel 35 VT to have a highly repeatable dot that can be dispensed relatively quickly. While vision systems for gap pads are oftentimes used before the pad is applied to the substrate, vision systems and evaluation for thermal gels is often done after the material is dispensed. Images like those on the left from the Keyance vision system can scan cross sections of gels to ensure repeatability and consistency from dot to dot. Small modifications to the dispensing tip, pressure, time, valve characteristics, and other application processes can be used to fine tune the shape of the gel pattern based on the exact application needs. This is support that the Chomerics application engineering team can provide to make it as easy as possible to integrate thermal gels into your design process. It's important to note that this process can be used with both one component and two component materials for validating repeatability and dispensing consistency. And with that, we'll open it up for some questions. Thank you all very much for joining us today during this virtual event, and we hope we're able to share a little bit of new information about advancements in dispensable thermal interface materials. Unmuting is always good. Thanks, Ben, and thanks to KJ for that presentation. Looks like you guys have some really good things going at, Parker, Chomerics. Yeah. We're excited about some of our our recent materials and, certainly plan on on putting out new ones, especially as we're getting more and more requirements from customers on higher conductivity and and kind of the requirements around the dispensable thermal interface materials. Yeah. Yeah. And I wanted to mention, to everyone watching that, all of the presentations and downloadable materials, are gonna be available twenty four hours after the conclusion of today's event, in an on demand version. So if you registered in advance, you will get an email tomorrow about that. You ready to hop into the questions, Ben? Let's get right into it. Great. Let's start with this one. It says, can you comment on a method to dispense a metered amount for small chip surfaces? Yeah. So as you actually saw in the last few, few slides of the the presentation, there's a lot of different characterization. There's a lot of different, opportunity for dispensing different amounts of material. So certainly depending on the equipment that you have, there's different ways to control the the metering or the flow of those materials. When it comes to production volumes, there's, different levels of equipment, whether that's tabletop equipment or, specific high volume dispensing equipment that has very precise valves, that will basically open and close using a a time pressure system or some other pressure some other system of pushing the material out from a cartridge onto the board itself. And so we work with quite a few, if not all of the major dispensing, equipment manufacturers, in terms of optimizing our material for their processes and establishing kind of best practices for how do you control the amount of material, especially when you're thinking about things like cycle time, and volume of dispense, especially when you have a little bit of inconsistency. If you have a board that has, you know, eight or 10 or 40 different dispense locations that have different, patterns or different sizes, there's a lot of programming that can be done in order to optimize that process. Nice. Alright. Our next question asks, what is the maximum gap size for gel 75? Is there a dependence on lateral dimensions? And what about in a vertical application? Yeah. So in general with our gels, it's kinda tricky to answer the the question on maximum gap size just because we've seen them used anywhere from their minimum bond line, which for some gels is as thin as, you know, 50 microns. Typically about a 100 or a 150 microns for most gels. But the maximum gap size really depends on your application. I mean, we've seen people dispensing gels in mostly somewhere between a half a millimeter to about two or three millimeters, but there are applications where you're dispensing a lot of material. When it comes to the lateral dimensions, as we saw on the video, depending on the the size or the the the x y dimension of the area that you're trying to dispense, you can use different dispensing patterns to make sure that you're filling that area most effectively. And in vertical applications, our BT materials that we presented about halfway through the webinar are certainly the the materials that we've developed as a way to address, some of those those concerns. So actually, it's interesting that you mentioned that because we have our gel 75 BT, that we're launching very, very soon. And so that is a seven and a half watt per meter kelvin material that has the added benefit of vibration resistance and vertical slump resistance in in applications even up to, you know, two, three millimeters. So certainly, we can provide some more additional, information on that. So, Ben, you you said it's gonna, gel 75 is gonna be available soon. Is it available in, like, samples yet or is that, not yet? Yeah. I mean, we're, we've finalized the formulation. We've we've got it all locked. We're basically going through the last steps of, production, like production qualification, making sure that we're optimizing the process and getting that batch stability. So that gel 75 b t material, certainly look out for, for some information about that. And if there is specific interest, feel free to reach out to me. We can coordinate, like, kinda early samples. Cool. Very cool. Mhmm. Okay. I see Gerald says, I also asked this last time. Do you have a gel that incorporates both thermal and EMI shielding properties or a gel that can be dispensed to provide a seal environment, but also provide EMI shielding shielding? Yeah. One of the things that we're working on within our development is basically RF absorbing thermal gels. So thermal materials that, have thermal conductivity, somewhere in the range of three to about six watts per meter kelvin as well as RF absorbing properties, that so not necessarily shielding, but, RF absorbing. In terms of the environmental, protection, typically not. I mean, you have, the the two component materials like the SIP 35 e and the SIP 60, that we mentioned that are thermally conductive and will cure to a a hardened state. Still relatively soft compared to most, most two component materials on the market, but it will give some environmental protection just because inherently it's a silicone based material. We are also working on some RF, RF absorbing two component thermal interface materials as well. So certainly reach out for more information. Awesome. And, yeah, keep the question coming. Keep the questions coming, everybody. If for some reason we don't get to it in this session, Ben and KJ can follow-up with you, over email after after today. Our next question says, any recommendation on types of automated machines for Parker gels? Yeah. So like I mentioned, we work with just about all of the key manufacturers of dispensable equipment, whether they're based here in North America or Europe or Asia, as well as our applications team does a lot of work with, those teams directly. So, know, just naming a few off the top of my head, Graco, PVA, BD Tronic, Viscotek, Schugenfuhlug, Nordson. There's just a lot of companies out there, and we work with just about all of them again to optimize some of those those processes for for our materials, and providing those best practices and using our applications team, to provide on that guidance either to the OEMs or to the contract manufacturers that are typically using them in high volumes. Awesome. Alright. Our next one, Ben, says, what are the thermal conductivity, what is the thermal or yeah. Thermal conductivity of these TIMS, and how do you compare these TIMS with liquid metal TIMS? Yeah. So in general, the bulk thermal conductivity of most of our materials, on the lower end is about three watts per meter kelvin. On the higher end, is about 12. At the moment, we're honestly continuing to push that further and further. Compared to liquid metals, that bulk thermal conductivity is lower. However, the key difference is that all of our thermal interface materials, specifically gels and pads and the two component materials are ceramic filled, which means they're not electrically conductive. There isn't any kind of additional secondary processing that you have to do from the perspective of, preventing the material from getting onto the board and potentially causing shorting like liquid metals do. So that's one of the key benefits of ceramic filled materials. Alright. Great. KJ. Next question is, are is there any impact on thermal conductivity based on how much of the material is compressed or on the nozzle size due to filler alignment? Yeah. It's a good question. So in general, with the gels, there isn't actually necessarily any kind of constant force or constant pressure, that's required on the material to provide that thermal conductivity. Typically, we recommend applying a material based on the nominal gap size, and we have guidance that we can provide in terms of, you know, if you have an x y dimension of your component of, you know, of a certain size and then a a nominal, z height or a nominal gap that you're trying to fill. One of the things that we can do is provide guidance on how much how much of that gel to apply or how much of that, cure in place material to apply. And then when you compress it, you're getting that effective thermal contact. And so there isn't necessarily that specific, specific consideration, at that point. Right. But it doesn't I I will say it doesn't really impact the the thermal conduct you know, inherently, these materials have a a greater they're a homogeneous material, so they have standard bulk thermal conductivity. Obviously, once you can get to a thinner gap, the thermal impedance is going to decrease, which can provide you that that better performance. But, again, that's mostly driven by, by gap size. Great. Looks like we've got time for about two more. So here is one, Ben. It says, what is your lowest thermal resistance gel or gap pad for high power electronics, And what is the thermal conductivity and recommended bond line thickness? Getting specific. So I will I will say I, I'll kinda answer this with with two parts. So when it comes to, the low thermal, thermal resistance in terms of bulk, I would say bulk thermal conductivity. The highest material that we have is a gel one twenty. So it's a 12 watt per meter kelvin, gel. And we also have a 12 watt, pad, that we are, sampling for high power electronics. When it comes to low thermal, and the with the gel one twenty, the challenge, or one of the things that that that we've developed around that material is the fact that the minimum bond line is actually relatively large. It's about 250 microns. Whereas for the lowest thermal resistance, we have a material, our 50 TBL that we presented here that has a bulk property of bulk thermal, conductivity of about five watts per meter kelvin. However, it's specifically designed for thin bond lines, and so that is, it it it's designed to be used down to about 50 microns. And so at minimum bond line, it has a very low thermal impedance, and it has an apparent thermal conductivity of closer to 11 or 12 watts per meter Kelvin. So at minimum bond line, the thermal impedance is about four and a half, degrees c millimeter squared per watt. So that I would say that's probably the the the the lowest. We're also developing some phase change materials and some high performance greases, depending on the specific application that will also have a low thermal impedance. Great. And I am seeing in the docs, a couple links. One is to, some slides from this presentation and another one, for, looks like a, products and custom solutions, for thermal management from Parker Chomerics. So that's great. Make sure to take advantage of that if you're curious about those. And we got time for one more question. Do you have one more than you, Ben? Absolutely. Okay. Great. Last one is gonna be this one. How do the benefits of thermal gels or dispensable gap fillers compare to the benefits of thermal gap pads? Yeah. So, I mean, it it certainly depends on your application. When it comes to gels and and gap fillers, the key one of the key reasons that these materials were developed, is the dispensable, properties in mind. So they're are they can be dispensed in highly automated, highly repeatable patterns. That being said, you know, thermal gap pads are specifically being developed in order to be compatible with automated pick and place technology, which we're building into, just about all of our new materials as well. So you do see that that value of automation, especially in high volumes, of of applications. At the same time, one of the the advantages from a supply chain side so for example, if you have various components that have different, x, y, and z, z dimensions in a single height heat sink or cold plate, you've gotta take advantage of or you have to use a number of different, gap pad part numbers that are cut to a specific size, in order to make sure you're not overcompressing or undercompressing the gap pad as well as covering the the key heat generating area. And so one of the things that, that happens with, gels and dispensable materials is that you're simplifying the supply chain. You can use a single part number, you know, gallon pail or a 300 cc cartridge and just dispense, you know, point eight five grams here or 1.5 grams of the material over the the specific area based on the nominal, gap size in order to make sure that you're, you're meeting the thermal requirements. And then finally, some of it is, compression force. With gap heads, we recommend kind of a, a recommended minimum, deflection of about five or 10% of the nominal height of the gap head. But what that means is that you're constantly applying a force onto the underlying heat generating component. With dispensable materials like, two component, gap fillers or gels, once you stop actively, compressing the material, you're not really you don't have a whole lot of residual force on the underlying component. So if you're using fragile components or, components that you can't really stress, that's where gels and gap pads also, see benefits. And then on top of that, you have things like the vibration dampening, and then vertical vertical slump resistance. So certainly, it just really depends on application, but there are, there's a lot of a lot of different values and, certainly our myself or our applications team, can give you guidance on what we would recommend, based on your thermal and physical property requirements. Yeah. Awesome. Like I like I mentioned in the docs tab, there are some resources there. And I also just dropped the link to, the Parker Chomerics into the chat so you can check that out. But, Ben and KJ, I wanna thank you guys both. And, Ben, tell tell KJ we missed him and we want him next time. And, he's dodging our questions. But, yeah, thanks thanks for being so thorough and answering the questions. And if you'll wanna follow-up, with Ben or KJ or the Parker team, that link will take you to a contact area as well. So, yeah, thanks, thanks one more time for presenting today, Ben. And our next section next session will begin in about ten minutes. So take a stretch break, and we'll see you then.